Got Fruit ?

The situation:  Amos is sent to announce God’s judgement against the the northern kingdom of Israel. Israel was performing half-hearted worship, merely going through rituals, while still flirting with pagan shrines at Bethel and other places of worship.  See links for Introduction and commentaries at bottom of post for more details.

Amos 9:1-4
1 I saw the Lord standing by the altar, and he said:
       "Strike the tops of the pillars
       so that the thresholds shake.
       Bring them down on the heads of all the people;
       those who are left I will kill with the sword.
       Not one will get away,
       none will escape.

2 Though they dig down to the depths of the grave,
       from there my hand will take them.
       Though they climb up to the heavens,
       from there I will bring them down.

3 Though they hide themselves on the top of Carmel,
       there I will hunt them down and seize them.
       Though they hide from me at the bottom of the sea,
       there I will command the serpent to bite them.

4 Though they are driven into exile by their enemies,
       there I will command the sword to slay them.
       I will fix my eyes upon them
       for evil and not for good."

Some pretty hard language coming from God huh?  Perhaps a little unsettling, compared to the loving version of God that’s so much easier to talk about.  Regardless of what notions you the reader or myself may have about God, this too is a nature of God that one can only avoid in their minds.  On God’s Word, we can be assured that though we might get away with living outside of His commands (sinning) for a while, there is no escaping judgement.  God, through His prophet Amos is telling Israel exactly so in Amos 9.

We have free will to go through life avoiding, "hiding" from, or even outright denying that God exists.  We can doubt His Word. We can even make our own interpretations of His Word to better fit our manufactured image of how we desire God to be.  A few problems with this thought process though are that when we do, we lie about God by bringing Him down to our level.  We also lie to ourselves by worshiping this reduced "version" of God.  It’s then not God that we’re striving for a relationship with, rather an idol (Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before  me.." ) that we’ve erected. There is however good news, a way to avoid the "nastiness" of all this doom and gloom.

1st Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Grace and peace be with you.

Amos: Introduction, Amos 9 commentaries

I had quite a few thoughts going on in my jumbled mind last week as I attempted to bring things to order in the post: Christ’s divinity (Apologetics).  That post actually started out not as any type of attempt at apologetics but rather from another observation made while reading Genesis.  As I made mention earlier in Christ’s divinity (Apologetics):

For the Bible believing Orthodox Christian John 1:1-2 is probably the most popular verse that we reach for in explaining or defending the Trinitarian doctrine and beliefs.

That post which is more or less directed against the Jehovah’s Witnesses doctrine (which denies the divinity of Jesus), included verse 3 of John 1 as Biblical evidence for the divine nature of Christ Jesus.  Other verses that speak of Christ’s nature as divine include:

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 10:31-33
31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

Hebrews 1:5-10
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
   "You are my Son;
      today I have become your Father? Or again,
   "I will be his Father,
      and he will be my Son"?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
   "Let all God’s angels worship him."
7 In speaking of the angels he says,
   "He makes his angels winds,
      his servants flames of fire."
8 But about the Son he says,
   "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
      and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
      therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
      by anointing you with the oil of joy."
10 He also says,
   "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
      and the heavens are the work of your hands.

Getting back to the main point.  The following is an observation and thoughts from reading Genesis that I believe builds on what John 1:1-3 (as well as the other passages from Scripture) presents of Jesus’ divine nature.

In the first book of Genesis we are told that God created the heavens and the earth, His Spirit meantime hovering over the waters.  Perhaps, purposefully meant to be a "witness" (John 16:13,2nd Timothy 3:16-17) to the creation events?

The first interesting observation comes from Genesis 1:26, which throughout the Genesis account is the only instance where God is read as directly addressing "someone else" ("Let us make man in our image…") ie; inviting "someone else" to participate in either a creative process or the entire creative process.  Or is it?

Again I had always understood the Genesis account as God the Father, being full of power and glory simply speaking into existence what He desired.  The thought that I’m attempting to relate is that I had missed seeing what I’ll refer to as "corporate creation" or "cooperative creation" that goes beyond "Let us make man in our image…" within the godhead.  It’s not that I had dismissed what John 1:1-3 says,nor disbelieved,  rather I never saw the connection literally written out, in and throughout Genesis 1 so clearly as now. Hey, I never claimed to be the sharpest tool in the shed.  Hopefully the following will explain.

Notice in Genesis 1:3-5,9-13 that God makes a declaration, and it’s so; whereas in Genesis 1:6-8,14-27, God makes a declaration, and that declaration is followed by a confirming "God made or God created" statement reflecting what God had intended to create. Seeing Genesis with a different set of eyes expands, clarifies, and solidifies my beliefs in Christ’s divinity.  This clarity is a result of reading and understanding the Genesis account not only as God the Father creating, but also as God (Jesus Christ the Son) being shown in Scripture through a closer examination, to be actively involved in the creation process as well.  Taking a closer look at Scripture…

The following passages from Genesis are broken out and grouped to present where it appears that God the Father is speaking to Jesus (Genesis1:3-5,9-14), thus Christ is the one doing the creating.

Genesis1:3-5,9-14
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so.

In this second set of Scripture from Genesis (Genesis1:6-8,16-26) this is where it appears that God the Father is the one with the "lead" in the creation process.

Genesis1:6-8,16-26
6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

 

20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Finally in verse 27 of Genesis, we have what can be read as speaking of either the godhead or perhaps God the Father only in the first sentence.  I can only assume not to include the Holy Spirit per se, as He was hovering over the waters.  When we jump to the second part of verse 27, "in the image of God he created him;", it seems to be reading as "in the image of God (Jesus Christ the Son) he (God the Father) created him (man);".

Genesis 1:27
27 So God created man in his own image,
       in the image of God he created him;
       male and female he created them.

Just some thoughts that I wanted to share.  I hope that in part or whole this might be of use to someone explaining, defending or otherwise in conversation about Christ’s divinity or the Trinity.

Grace and peace be with you.

Neither did they say, "Where is the Lord,Who brought us up out of the land of Egypt,Who led us through the wilderness?"
Jeremiah 2:6

Christianity is an intimate, growing relationship with the person of Jesus Christ. It is not a set of doctrines to believe, habits to practice, or sins to avoid. Every activity God commands is intended to enhance His love relationship with His people.

God designed worship for us to see Him in His glory and to respond appropriately; for many it has degenerated into "religion," one more meeting to attend out of habit. God established the sacrificial system so that we, His people, could express our love to Him; but we often diminish our gifts to our Lord into futile attempts to appease Him and to pacify our guilty conscience.

God gave us prayer so we could have conversation with Him, but we often distort this by "saying prayers" and hurrying off without ever listening to what is on our Father’s heart. God instituted His commandments as a protection for those He loves, but the commandments can become a pathway to legalism rather than an avenue for a relationship with our Father in which He protects us from harm.

Religious activity apart from fellowship with God is empty ritual. The people of Jeremiah’s day were satisfied to have the ritual without the manifest presence of God. They became so comfortable with their "religion" that they didn’t even notice God’s absence. Is it possible to pray, to attend a worship service, or to give an offering yet not to experience the presence of God? It certainly is possible! And that has been the sad commentary on many a Christian experience. Don’t settle for a religious life that lacks a vital relationship to Jesus Christ. When God is present, the difference will be obvious.

Henry and Richard Blackaby
Experiencing God Day-by-Day

This past Friday was my first day back into the office since closing closing down for the 1 1/2 week CHRISTmas break.  I was having a conversation with a co-worker about how my son’s seemingly inability to clean up after himself (he does try to remember sometimes).  The co-worker responded back in frustration with similar complaints.  Initially, I didn’t catch a subtle action that took place during our brief exchange.

See?  The co-worker has a tendency to use colorful language.  If our boss or my office neighbor (both Christians) are within earshot, she’s mindful of her language.  As for me, I can’t recall her watching her tongue when I’m around.  Maybe it’s the fact that the co-worker is my ex-wife and has an established comfort level that overrides being conscious of her language around me?  Later that evening as I was grabbing something from the kitchen, the day’s earlier conversation replayed across the mental screen, and I recalled that moment where she was on the verge of uttering profanity.  She didn’t though, she had caught herself,there was a conscious effort on her part to watch her tongue.

I’d like to believe that that little pause, was the result of the light of Christ in this life shining outwardly and impacting someone around me in a positive way.

Matthew 5:14-16
14 "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

We must become the change we want to see in the world.
Mohandas Gandhi

Grace and peace be with you.

The following long post is from what initially started out as a response to a comment left by visitor TitforTat from the post: Oh yeah!?, how could a loving God condemn someone to hell?".  TitforTat’s comment, a quote from Thomas Talbott’s book: "The Inescapable Love of God", called for a deeper Biblical response which seemed a waste to bury in a comment thread.  Below (in blockquotes) is a copy of the commented quote left by Titfor Tat, followed by my response."

COMMENT FROM:Oh yeah!?, how could a loving God condemn someone to hell?".

TitforTat Says:
January 1st, 2009 at 6:07 pm

Hey Christopher

Happy New Year, heres something to maybe make you think a little. If you really want to think, get the book.

The idea that divine justice requires forgiveness accords very well with the New Testament analogy between God and a loving parent. It also illuminates in an intriguing way the nature of Gods opposition to sin. As the Augustinians see it, God opposes sin enough to punish it, but not enough to destroy it altogether; instead of destroying sin altogether, he merely confines it to a specially prepared region of his creation, known as hell, where he keeps it alive for an eternity. According to our alternative picture, however, God forgives sin for this very reason: In no other way could he oppose it with his entire being. For as the St. Paul saw so clearly, our specific sins express a sinful condition, and the latter is a form of spiritual death; it is simply our condition of being separated or estranged or alienated from God and from each other. So the opposite of a sinful condition is a state of reconciliation; and if that is so, then God cannot be against sin, cannot oppose it with his entire being, unless he is for reconciliation. And he can hardly be for reconciliation unless he is prepared to forgive others even as he has commanded us to forgive them. Indeed, if God should refuse to forgive someone, as is not even possible given his loving nature, he would then separate himself from this person; and that is the very essence of sin as Paul himself understood it.
Thomas Talbott …The inescapable Love of God

Christopher says:

Thanks and Happy New Year to you as well. I’m going to chew on this for a bit and get back with you.

Grace and peace be with you.

END OF COMMENT

POST/RESPONSE

Let us begin by addressing the assumption that "divine justice requires forgiveness". This assumption I believe is a spin on the same idea that because God is and does love; it precludes Him from allowing anyone to pay for the consequences of their own actions (sin). I say ‘allowing" because I believe a tendency of our naturally sinful selves is to shift responsibility or blame onto someone else. In Genesis, Adam illustrates this when confronted by God.

Genesis 3:11-12
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?" 12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

In one breath Adam deflects his own culpability by managing to not only blame Eve, but seems to be implicating God as well… "The woman you put here with me"; forgetting that God had given him a specific command; "…I commanded you not to eat from?". (See also Genesis 2:15-17)  Eve wasn’t created yet when that command was given.

Returning back to divine justice requiring forgiveness however, it assumes that we deserve or are otherwise entitled to forgiveness. This thought proposes that without extending forgiveness God can’t be just nor administer justice. The question is his though: "Who’s understanding of justice are we talking about? - God’s or what man presumes to know of it?"  Notice in the following from Isaiah that God gives a specific response that man is to have towards Him, of which God will then respond back to man.

Isaiah 55:7-8
7 Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon. 8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.

If we take Talbott’s notion of "divine justice requiring forgiveness" as a blanket statement,it presents a problem as then even Satan (See Isaiah 14:12-15) and his demons (fallen angels) should qualify for a pass. Is that justice - to allow the architect of chaos and sin a pass? Or perhaps Satan and crew don’t count in Talbott’s assessment of divine justice? The question would then be - "Why is it that Satan and his demons won’t be forgiven by God?"; since as Talbott states:

Indeed, if God should refuse to forgive someone, as is not even possible given his loving nature, he would then separate himself from this person; and that is the very essence of sin as Paul himself understood it.
Thomas Talbott - The Inescapable love of God

Talbott puts the  heat on God here, making it out that God is the one doing the separating from His creation.  Throughout the Bible though, as God is dealing with Israel, it is the nation of Israel that provokes God to divorce Himself of Israel due their adulteress actions (sin).  This same response from God was first shown in Genesis when God drove Adam out of the garden… because of his sin against God.

As did Adam, Talbott attempts to reverse the situation making God out to be "the bad guy".  Talbott is confused in his theology, the very essence of sin is that it is rebellion to what God has commanded; an act of disobedience (Adam) or defiance.(Lucifer/Satan).  It is that rebellion (sin) that causes us to be separated from God, because His nature is holy.

Speaking of separation and God’s nature… from the book of Romans, Paul the apostle warns of the coming wrath of God.  Paul makes it clear that God and His ways of righteousness are evident.

Romans 1:18-20
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

From the beginning; in the beginning, God seems to be making a point about separation.  I brought up Romans 1:18-20 as a parallel thought and to segue back to Genesis, to further illustrate a point concerning God’s holy nature. Building off of Romans 1:18-20, in Genesis 1:4, you have a  literal and metaphorical example, the metaphor referring to sin/evil.  Genesis 1:7 is another literal example of separation displayed in nature as an example of… "God’s invisible qualities-His eternal power and divine nature.".

Genesis 1:4,7
4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness.

7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so.

Over 2500 years after Genesis (dates of Creation, The Fall of Man, The Noahic Flood, & The Tower of Babel unknown) Christ Himself has this to say about separation of sin from righteousness in the Parable of the Net.

Matthew 13:47-51
47 "Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

51 "Have you understood all these things?" Jesus asked.
      "Yes," they replied.

For Talbott to arrive at the position that in the end every one is forgiven and thus saved from eternal condemnation to Hell, Jesus has to therefore have lied.   Additionally Talbott’s position makes Christ’s crucifixion in vain, there’s no connection between the death of Jesus on the cross and the need to have a savior in Christ to atone for our sins.  Would you willing die for no reason, no purpose?

Romans 3:25-26
25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Colossians 1:19-20
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Here Talbott paints the opposite of sin as reconciliation.  The opposite of a sinful condition would be righteousness, as obedience is the opposite of disobedience, right is to wrong, holy is to wicked, and as light is to dark.  He tries to close the gap between sin and holiness with reconciliation.  Talbott fails to mention however that as sure as there is the potential for reconciliation, there first must come a response of repentance which affords justification, and the only way to be justified before God is through Christ.

Romans 3:21-24
21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

"So the opposite of a sinful condition is a state of reconciliation; and if that is so, then God cannot be against sin, cannot oppose it with his entire being, unless he is for reconciliation…"
Thomas Talbott - The Inescapable love of God

Again in order for Talbott’s position to be true, it then insinuates that Jesus lied or was confused concerning the Parable of the Narrow and Wide Gates  He gave.  What then do we say concerning the words spoken by Jesus of separating The Sheep and The Goats as all the nations are gathered before Him in heaven?

Matthew 7:13-14
13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Matthew 25:31-46
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left…. 46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Talbott insists that all will then be given eternal life using the rationale that God has to forgive everyone since He is for reconciliation.  Reconciliation on the other hand is the effect of a repentant heart, justified through Christ. Adam was already in a right relationship with God, he was not reconciled to God prior to committing sin, because there was nothing to be made right until after he sinned against God.

Romans 3:21-24
21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

 

"… And he can hardly be for reconciliation unless he is prepared to forgive others even as he has commanded us to forgive them."
Thomas Talbott - The Inescapable love of God

A few questions to meditate on:

• "If there’s no imminent danger or consequence why then the warnings against sin?"
• "Why then does God allow His Son to be murdered by His creation?".
• "If God was willing to let His Son die for our sakes (for reconciliation), why would He not allow man to in fact pay with his life for refusing to accept His grace?"
• "What is the rationale or purpose in this exercise of a blood payment for sin?"

God has made it perfectly clear in Romans 6:23 that "…the wages of sin is death." He’s made known what the conditions are for eternal life, as well as what’s at stake for those that do not repent from their  sin(s) and accept his gift of grace. 

John 3:16-18
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Romans 5:8-9
8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

1st John 5:11-12
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

In the end, I don’t agree with Talbott’s perspective concerning God and His (God’s) method of administering justice.  It’s not that I feel it unfair of God to let some pass without meeting the standards while others are supposedly held to them per Talbott’s spin.  My reasons as already presented via Scripture are that Talbott goes beyond what Scripture  clearly reveals about God’s plan and means of reconciliation for humanity.  Talbott’s interpretation simply doesn’t line up with the Bible. Talbott it would appear has manufactured in his mind some new gospel not preached by Paul.  Furthermore, a brief visit to Talbott’s site revealed this link where he calls for "a universalist reading of the New Testament".  That said, I leave you with these words from Paul himself.

Galatians 1:6-10
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

10 Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Ephesians 5:6-7
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them.

Grace and peace be with you.